Depending on the age of your Navien NPE-A model, he did you a favor. Cookie Notice Most importantly, the installer fails to mount the pump on the vibration isolators. Make sure to follow the required instructions before and after you've turned it off for your safety. Years of experience in the HVAC field have taught him many lessons, not the least of which is that the value of quality and knowledge far exceeds any promised initial savings. I obviously dont know much about this but the plumber is giving reasons that feel like he is making up dont make sense to me: 1. Grundfos small circulators are perfect as hot water recirculation pumps for commercial and domestic hot water applications. Here are the leading causes of strange noises coming from your heater; Hire a professional or installer to repair your heater to avoid damaging the heater and voiding your warranty. You certainly dont want that, do you? Below, I will break down everything to stop the buzzing noise. Yes!!! To install a full recirculating pump system, you need to consult with a plumber because you will need an extra pipe. Unscrew the plug cover with a suitable screwdriver to remove it. In his spare time, Oscar loves tinkering with electronics. This is done every time you close the faucet. When I hooked hoses to the service pipes, the system still produced a strong, steady flow of water, seeming to not drain. Press the + (Up) or (Down) buttons until the desired temperature appears on display. If your pump does this, then it is to be expected, otherwise it sounds like the hot and cold are mixing at some point and you'd need to find out where . Why Does My RV Carbon Monoxide Detector Keep Going Off? Parts that will actually be used depend on what kind of hot water recirculation pump you have. What Is the Difference Between 'Man' And 'Son of Man' in Num 23:19? Is the plumbers reasoning valid here? Did any DOS compatibility layers exist for any UNIX-like systems before DOS started to become outmoded? Find products from Grundfos related to this subject. Not only that, by now you should know how to turn it off and why its important to do so. Most of information is available in the install manual but some of it requires a phone call to Navien support. JavaScript is disabled. Thats all for today. Here are some of the leading causes of cold water production; Which means there isnt enough time for the water to heat up. Can I swap out the mainboard in the NR240A to an NPE240A board to get all that features? 08. So you'll find the same info whether you're looking for the Navien 240A manual, the Navien NPE-240S manual, Navien NPE-180A manual or similar. Examine and wash the intake air filter underneath running water using a toothbrush. Is there a way to tell if the cold pipe is circulatory/return line or cold water from the mains? If it does, you could trigger the operation to save money whenever your system detected 'away' or however you've got it programmed. All you have is a crossover valve underneath a sink somewhere also when plumbed correctly, all of that will only function with proper dip switch settings, perimeter settings, which is Pacific per heater model. The function of a recirculating pump is to ensure that hot water is always available as close to the consumption point as possible, in order to reduce water waste and to increase comfort. The hot water recirculation pump works by: The very phrase recirculating comes from this pump returning the unused hot water back into the tank. So, there is such a thing. Is this noise normal coming from my Navien tankless heater? It clips on the side of the PCB board without screws and then you connect a ribbon cable to the PCB. A place for plumbing advice and help. For example, you will see Navien error code 003 on the display screen, which means the igniter is malfunctioning. This error informs you there is something wrong while you reset the unit. I recommend you disassemble the recirculation pump from the unit and inspect it carefully for foreign materials. We trusted him and thought everything was just fine as we were getting hot water throughout the house. Actually the only real issue is the lack of isolation valve on the recirculation connection, resulting in the constant water supply to the water heater. When you turn on the shower or a faucet, do you get hot water instantly? You can isolate the pump from the vibration in two ways. We have one faucet in the kitchen that has instant scalding hot water the second you turn it on . Then what are we waiting for? Does anyone know the logic behind how Navien controls their internal recirculation pump when it is circulating with an external loop? Thanks. Advantages and disadvantages of hot water circulation pumps. Turn off the device for half an hour and confirm everything is working correctly. Turn off the recirculation when the house is not occupied, in order to save even more energy. After draining a few hot water tanks over the years, removing sediment, will the cold water now possibly have some sediment and/or taste issues. some homes require multiple recirc lines in order for all fixture group to benefit. 30000466A Navien Circulation Pump NAPU9GLPCT33 . Why Its Important To Turn Off The Water Recirculating Pump? Answer: It really depends on your model type. Purchasing a timer will also fix the problem. Let's hop in! Now, when installed, the recirculating pump makes it seem that the hot water starts flowing right away like magic. When you operated the hot water tap the last time you needed it, the water shuts off as soon as you turn off the tap. Hello Sam, you can shut off the recirculating pump to the kitchen faucet. He says both the master bath and the kitchen. What am I doing wrong here in the PlotLegends specification? When attempting a flush of the system, I shut off the hot and cold valves that lead into the heater. = heat loss from the circulation system [kW] However, if it generates annoying or buzzing noise, there is something wrong with the system. The leading causes of the intermittent flame; You can fix these issues by maintaining and cleaning the heater. It sounds awful and not like any other recirculating pump I've ever heard. Pump the white vinegar into the cold side, up through your water heater, and out the hot side. You need a crossover valve installed under one of your faucets that is far away from the water heater (there are a few different styles but they all have four connections and get installed under a faucet). These on-demand units need an even longer time for the hot water to reach a faucet because the heater has to first heat the water and then send it along to the faucet. they have an accessory called the HotButton (PZZZ-00046). 5.0 out of 5 stars 3 ratings. However, I have envious of those who have the NPE with the hot button and wifi link. Therefore, when it malfunctions, it is a sign that the heater has another major underlying issue. Navien's patented ComfortFlow system is the first to include a buffer tank, recirculation pump and fine-tuned controls into a tankless water heater, resolving the cold-water sandwich effect* and issues of minimal flow rates commonly found in other tankless water heaters. $257.16. Check this too: Electric RV Water Heater How to & Troubleshooting Guide Turns out that it was the temperature of the return water was high enough to stop the recirculation. When attempting a flush of the system, I shut off the hot and cold valves that lead into the heater. Place the filter assembly back into the water heater and secure it with the screw. Low gas supply which prevents proper heating of water, Damaged flow sensor preventing proper supply of gas to the heater. The total amount of water needed is 2 gallons + 1.5 gallons + (3 gallons * length of shower). Make sure the major electrical cord is grounded correctly. If pointed in the right direction, though, I might be able to solve this. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. Also, as I'm taking a closer look at it, I'm concerned that some key things may be amiss. We do all the time-consuming research and testing for you. Consider yourself lucky if this installation hasn't damaged your circulating pump inside the unit. Ask Your Own HVAC Question b55db6.jpeg 6a7761.jpeg ee4ed0.jpeg cc7ba2.jpeg 8ec6a3.jpeg 32aa59.jpeg Press either the Up and the Down button to switch between any of these recirculation settings: I have an NR240A for about 10 years now. You can adjust the temperature by the below 10-degree increments, depending on the temperature range: 98 F-120 F/ 36 C-50 C 1 F or 0.5 C increments, 120 F-140 F /50 C-60 C Press for 2 seconds to adjust in 5 F or 2C increments. This propels the water to your faucet or shower much quicker. The heater turns off automatically when the flue pipe surpasses 149 degrees Fahrenheit. You can crack open the manual for your tankless heater and check if it comes with that option. Open the pressure relief valve. They are not without upfront costs or disadvantages. If the problem persists, call a technician to fix the unit. Manage Settings Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. So, hire a professional to deal with the issue. It is caused by an open or shorted air pressure sensor. 2. How To Turn Off A Water Recirculating Pump? I can figure out occupied or not from a home automation or alarm system. I guess the recirculation line will be the only one that is copper. It may not display this or other websites correctly. We want to reduce waste in using water given our well situation. He has a good standing reputation for superior skills in heating, air conditioning, hot water tanks, and indoor air quality systems. Just one Navien water heater manual for all NPE-A and NPE-S units. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. The timer has control over when the pump is working continuously. Then, you can change the tank thermistor if needed. How can this new ban on drag possibly be considered constitutional? If the problem does not get resolved, replace the motherboard or control board or hire a professional t do it. You will not get hot water instantly. I noticed my apartment building installed one and at that time the whole water pressure was low. DC Wire Gauge Calculator: What Gauge Wire (12V, 24V, 48V)? What effect does this have on gas usage for instant hot water? Lets look at the two most popular types: You can install hot water or tankless hot water recirculation pump in an existing or in a new home. Tankless Water Heater Wire Size Calculator: What Gauge Wire (AWG)? Check the thermistors condition along with pump wiring connectors. That is a premium service however. Here are some simple instructions on how to turn on your Navien tankless water heater. Hope this illustrates well why this might be occurring; its a pretty standard thing. You have to inspect the sensors connectors to confirm they are not wet and fixed correctly. Lets start by looking at how these pumps actually work: If it takes forever for the hot water to start running, it usually means that there is a long pipe between a boiler (or a hot water heater or tankless water heater) and the faucet. Remove the screw that secures the air intake filter and then remove the filter. You can set it to run in the morning before work, and in the evening. This time of year, we dont need to have instant hot water circulating so we turned off the pump. However, that shouldnt happen if you have turned the pump off. There is a circulator pump, but it still takes a long time for hot water to reach the upstairs bathrooms. Navien NaviCirc Recirculation Valve Description How it works Specifications Dimensions Second, you can use a flex connector to isolate the pump. That installation is incorrect. Air in the line: If there has been a power outage or air has gotten into the line for another reason, the pump can make a lot of noise. Examine and confirm the pressure sensor and wiring are in good condition. The heating supply thermistor is defective. I'm fairly handy with DIY plumbing, but not and expert and I know when I am out of my league. There are filters that prevent the sediment from entering the water flow. Then re-insert the filter and screw it back in place. You mentioned that in the summer months your can turn off the recirculation pump. Of course, the most important part is the pump itself, so well start with that: These are the standard building blocks of every recirculation pump for getting hot water quickly. Close the isolation valves to the cold-supply and recirculation lines. Worst case is your plumber might have to call since they require them to maintain it. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Lets outline them here: To determine if installing a hot water recirculation pump makes sense for your situation, we have to check the pros and cons. Create a chart to regulate hot water usage. Take care! It tells you about the improper operation of the flow sensor. If any of them are loose or disconnected, your circulator pump won't work. Is this incorrectly installed? The filter is located at the top left of the water heater. Since pumps cost about $200 each, the recirculating pump will pay for itself in 3-4 years. But it will be best if you contact a certified plumber to fix this issue. Ensure you mount the pump securely. You can replace the sensor if needed. If that fails, then the pump impeller might have disintegrated or the system water pressure may be below 0 at the pump suction causing the pump to cavitate. You can change the cold water inlet thermistor if necessary. What I imagined would happen is 3-4 seconds of cold and then super hot water that was just waiting for me from the recirculation. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? Check this too: Electric RV Water Heater How to & Troubleshooting Guide. We hope we were able to help you out with our guide. Older Navien heater models are prone to flow sensor issues. Examine the thermistors condition and pump wiring connectors. Thats 2,920 gallons of water per year wasted. Error Code E438 It means the circulation pump is not working correctly. When you are installing water system stuff, a lot of things can cause low pressure. Types of water circulation pumps, including tankless water heater recirculation pumps. We turn it off because it will waste gas. Timers and wifi sockets are quite cheap. To select a recirculation mode, you must set the DIP switches on the front panel, and set the position of the 2-way valve inside the water heater. Question: Can a recirculating pump last for 10-15 years?Answer: If you use it properly, it should last at least 10-15 years. Just like everything with these three characteristics, it is time-consuming and challenging. Open the hot and cold service ports and turn the pump on. Your Navien Recirculation Pump will make a humming noise like a refrigerator if you dont bleed the air out of the recirculation system. While you may have a general understanding of the listed electrical issue above, you should not attempt to handle any electrical work unless you are a licensed electrician. Refer to the user manual to locate the Hot Button and then press it to activate hot water recirculation. Start by turning off the service valves and removing the hoses. If your system is re-circed as close as possible to the fixtures (ask yourself do I have two hot waterlines for each fixture?) Hello Frank, one of the disadvantages of recirculating pumps is that you have to wait for cold water a bit. Its really an easy task to do. link to Why Does My RV Carbon Monoxide Detector Keep Going Off? Yes, you can turn off your hot water recirculating pump. That install is exactly as specified in the newer manuals. It is important to note that recirculation pumps dont work continuously; they are used only when we open and close the faucet. Is there a recirculating pump for the tankless water heater known as Trutankless? Where did you find that info? Then, turn it on again. As a result, the stuff will rub against the wall of the pump and produce a hum like a refrigerator when you turn the unit on. Reassemble the heater and turn on the hot and cold water valves. A hot water recirculation pump can be sized for a given system using the following formulas: Water flow qc = /T x 4200 Solar panels, wiring, old TVs and sometimes DIY powerwalls. It means there is some issue with the flow sensor or switch. Also, check the feeder valve and pressure relief valves activity. It can also damage your main water heater and can create recirculation problems. What video game is Charlie playing in Poker Face S01E07? Wash it under the water with a brush, let it dry, and then place it back. qc = the circulating water flow [m3/s] Can you turn it off in a tankless that has it built in? Check to see if the water valves are open. Rather than using the hard wired door bell style push button that comes with the kit, I bought this remote control unit (. Some of our partners may process your data as a part of their legitimate business interest without asking for consent. I was under impression that with the recirculation pump this wouldnt be an issue (the wait time) and the fact that the water is just warm otherwise feels wrong. This extra pipe is installed parallel to conventional piping. Home Improvement Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for contractors and serious DIYers. (With Water Savings Analysis), Note On Tankless Water Heater Hot Water Recirculation Pumps (Double Trouble), How Much Electricity Does A Tankless Water Heater Use? Check if there is any gas leakage before turning it on after a couple of days. $197.08 $ 197. It is affordable and can easily fix your problem. Also the unit needs to be set to utilize the recirculation feature. Make sure that the drain hose will empty the scaling solution into the bucket. On top of that, the recirculating pumps also return the cold water in the pipes back to the heater. Call Navien and explain if yours is older. What about adding the NaviLink WiFi board and controlling it from your phone anywhere? You can contact a plumber if necessary. Its not exactly normal. In large systems, however, it may be advantageous to use controlled pumps to enable adjustment of the flow when starting up the system and to be able to apply temperature control. last week. Others run on a timer. This is known as recirculating home pump comfort system (Type #2) and its the most popular way to get hot water quickly. Empties the water pipes so the next time youll need hot water fast, it will meet less resistance in the piping and it will arrive at the faucet in a matter of seconds. Otherwise, turn it off. After using this amount of time, hardware gets old and starts to malfunction. You are using an out of date browser. Connect a regular garden hose to the hot side service valve. Here we will cover all the important parts of hot water recirculations pumps, including: You will get an overall look at how you can use increased water pressure by a circulation pump for almost instantaneous hot water access. I have a new Noritz tankless water heater that includes an AquaMotion recirculating pump at the heater and a crossover valve under the kitchen sink. The setup is correct and the only two settings you need are P.12 for recirculation time and P.16 for length of recirculation line from farthest point in the house. Well, If you overuse your pump, it will start malfunctioning. We might be able to do something about it. 14 Culprits To Check For Now, MMBTU To MMSCFD Calculator For Natural Gas + Chart, 8 Best Infrared Heaters For Indoors, Patios, Garages (With ECO Thermostats), AGM Battery Voltage Charts: 12V, 24V Deep Cycle Battery Voltage, Lead-Acid Battery Voltage Chart For 6V, 12V, 24V, 48V Batteries, Natural Gas MMSCFD To MMBTU/Day Calculator + Chart. If we take that the average price of water is $0.18/gallon (according to Statistas 2019 study), heres how much you can save on water with a recirculation pump: Water Savings = 2,920 gallons/year * $0.18/gallon = $525.60/year. This is because the sensors are corroded over time which causes them to shut the heater down. Costs associated with hot water circulation pumps (parts + installation + DIY savings). (1000-3000+ Sq Ft Homes), Thermostat Says Heat On But No Heat? Turning off your water recirculating pump reduces damage. Going off the grid sounds noble, satisfying and eco-friendly. Here is a list of advantages associated with hot water circulating pumps: Now lets have a look at the disadvantages of these pumps: Needless to say, recirculation pumps are not free. With the NRCR you can set your own schedule with a remote accessory and tailor the integrated pump to your lifestyle or scheduled needs. The recirculation pump will make a squeaking noise if the installer fails to install the primary loop correctly. We dont. It can occur due to an open or short sensor. The E615 tells you about the irregularity in input and memory. Question: How is a water recirculating pump eco-friendly?Answer: The basic reason is, water recirculating pumps save water. Next, hook hoses to the valves, then open them to drain the water. Make sure to follow our instructions properly for the right application. (Per Hour, Month, Year), How Much Does A Tankless Water Heater Cost? So, get 2 braided ss flex connectors and install them on the inlet and the outlet of the pump. Remove the front cover of the water heater. Navien Recirculation Pump Noise [4 Easy Solutions], 02. This issue is more common in older heater models. Thats why most homeowners prefer installing the recirculation pump without the extra pipe. However, many first-time and beginner road travelers and RV How to Connect a Generator to Your Tiny House Without a Transfer Switch. A while ago we had a plumber/friend install a Navien tankless water heater. Quite surprisingly for most homeowners, the biggest problem with this type of recirculation pump is getting cold water. The buffer tank eliminates the "cold water sandwich" effect and issues of minimum flow rates commonly found in other tankless water heaters. Fits These Models Is there the same solution for NR240A? 2 Types Of Hot Water Recirculation Pumps Used In Homes, Type 2: Recirculating Home Pump Comfort System, Advantages And Disadvantages Of Hot Water Recirculation Pumps, How Much Do Hot Water Circulation Pumps Cost + Installation Cost + Running Cost? Check the wiring and cold water inlet two thermistors and make sure both are in good condition. Ask an Expert Home Improvement Questions HVAC Questions Navien NPE-240s with external recirculating pump. To remedy this, you can take the two clamps off the sensor, pull it out and clean it. But, you can buy a new recirculating pump for $200-400. What disadvantages, beside cost???? The main sign of motherboard or control board failure is intermittent switching off and on. First, find the control panel on the front of the unit. We have some suggestions for you if you want to buy the best wifi sockets. Besides, the E782 indicates that there is something wrong with the main panel communication. This made me suspicious that water was coming from the mains. . Foreign materials like small pebbles may get into the recirculation pump. These are the kinds of issues that can occur if you aren't aware of the automatic appliances that are connected to your system (and don't shut them off along with the water). $44.90. Here is the list of all the parts you need to install a recirculation pump. What is more, you can, by these estimates, reduce the future water bill considerably and actually profit nicely just by not needlessly waiting for water when youre waiting for the hot water to kick in. Next, clean the dirt-trap. Start by removing it from the heater so you can clean it properly. Continue with Recommended Cookies. Some sort of noise out of your Navien recirculation pump is normal. Our articles, products and services are for informational purposes. The process to take apart the fitting which holds the flow sensor to "blow" it out clean is arduous, requiring drainage of the system etc., and has not solved the problem. Thanks for confirming and letting me know about the potential damage to the circulating pump as that hadn't occurred to me. We and our partners use cookies to Store and/or access information on a device. Allow the vinegar to circulate through the heater for a minimum of one hour (longer if the pump runs at less than four gallons per minute). Recirculation Settings by pressing down the OK button. This breaks down the scale and flushes out the sediment. Use your pump when you want to use it. To calculate the size of the heater, you will need to add up the amount of water required at a particular time. Ensure the main gas supply valve is open. (+ Installation Costs), How Many Amps Does A Tankless Water Heater Use? Does It Save Money? Ensure all return and supply lines are open and check the 2-way valves direction. On-Demand Mode. I used a razor and carefully pried each side of the RM11 open to reach the programming switch. This time of year, we dont need to have instant hot water circulating so we turned off the pump. It sounds awful and not like any other recirculating pump I've ever heard. Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. Navien tankless whole house HWH. You also have to flush the heat exchanger. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. Check to see if the warranty is still valid and contact the manufacturer. All in all, its important to understand that recirculation pumps are worth the money. Not sure I am understanding. Now, you have to know the hows for reducing damage. Remove the inlet filter and wash it under the running water with the help of a brush. It tells you about the abnormality of the external tank thermistor. Hopefully its clear which is which when Im down there. Watt recirculating pump installed on the water heater (pump plugged into standard 110/120V outlet, 3/4-inch pipe thread connectors, valve). but you stopped short for me. Because the recirculation pump ran with no water, the motor ended up burning out. The average electric tankless water heater needs at least 120 amps to work. Note: Remember to turn off power to the heater before replacing the gasket. Inspect the water feeder valve, water pressure, and water pressure relief valve. My pipes arent big enough 2. This serves two functions: This is also true for tankless water heaters. Did you mount the contact switch next to the Navien? Turns out if you "disable" schedules when in always on mode it stops the every 30 minute schedule the device uses when in Always On mode. The pump works on the existing pipes; it basically sends the leftover water back to the boiler or the heater. You can also identify and fix them yourself. We have a standard gas hot water heater with a circulating pump. sounds like you need a different plumber to assess your situation. IF it does, could it be controlled remotely? The recirculation timer is set to operate ever 15 minutes, even though we are often not at the property. Perhaps not everyone is familiar with the newer manual. You can turn it off during work hours, over the night, when you go on vacations, and so on. Do the plumbers explanations make any sense at all or does it sound like BS? Page 12 Turn off and discontinue use of the water heater if any of the vent . The cold water pipe coming from the wall goes into the domestic water inlet on the tankless heater, as it should. Now, we have to check if these costs are balanced out by the water savings. my understanding of the Navien with internal recirc pump is that they work with either an external dedicated return pipe or an internal bypass loop located within the water heater cabinet. Next, check and remove the intake filter from the heater. Troubleshooting Navien NPE-240A Internal Recirculation Pump - YouTube 0:00 / 4:21 Troubleshooting Navien NPE-240A Internal Recirculation Pump RCGooner2002 240 subscribers Subscribe. The recirculation pump saves on water bills by reducing the time to get hot water. So, keep reading till the end. If the external recirc is set up without this it will just run, defeating the purpose of hot water on demand. I am guessing that he only returned the HOT line, hence the delayed time in "INSTANT HOT", as the Naviens are sold as well as there 96% efficiency!! Therefore, the only task you can attempt on this list is the gasket replacement for the leaking water connection. where does the recirc line tie come off the hot lines? By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. Eventually, they pay for themselves by reducing the water bills. This is where the timer and temperature sensor come in. If you are looking for a tankless water heater that can provide you with hot water 24/7, Navien water heater is the way to go. Allow it to dry for some time before fixing it again. We can go from there with up to 3 hours of dedicated live coaching on the telephone if needed. Get it as soon as Wednesday, Mar 1. In fact, with a tankless water heater, you face double trouble (thats why youre not getting hot water fast): Because we need to wait longer for hot water in the case of tankless water heaters vs. traditional water heaters, it makes sense to minimize that time in tankless heaters even more.